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專訪導演刁亦男:南方車站的異托邦

Isaac Feldberg
2020-03-13

《南方車站的聚會》去年在中國上映后大受歡迎,并先后進入各大國際電影節(jié)展映環(huán)節(jié)。

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胡歌在《南方車站的聚會》中飾演周澤農(nóng)。

刁亦男執(zhí)導的《南方車站的聚會》通過強烈的視覺沖擊和獨特的氣質(zhì),將黑色電影代入了雨水漫天的街道和中國“二線城市”的面貌。

影片以繁榮的湖北省會武漢及周邊地區(qū)為背景(由于新冠肺炎疫情爆發(fā),目前湖北全省尚處在隔離狀態(tài)),講述了中國超大型城市以外的社會現(xiàn)實。2014年,刁亦男憑借《白日焰火》獲得了當年的柏林電影節(jié)最佳影片。

在這部新作中,小混混周澤農(nóng)(胡歌飾)因為被卷入摩托車盜竊團伙爭奪地盤的械斗,無意中殺死了一名警察,不得不走上逃亡之路。在逃避警察和更為殘忍的黑社會勢力途中,他邂逅了一名性工作者劉愛愛(桂綸鎂飾),而后者也有著神秘的動機。兩人共同設(shè)計了一個繁復的計劃,即使在重案組劉隊長(廖凡飾)與警方的全方位圍追堵截之下,周澤農(nóng)仍然可以悄悄獲得舉報自己的那筆賞金。故事生猛而復雜,每個場景都環(huán)環(huán)相扣,例如警方突襲一座建筑的情節(jié);霓虹燈照亮的小路上上演的摩托車追逐戲;夜間廣場舞背景下一雙運動鞋閃閃發(fā)光,直到變得血跡斑斑……這一切都將觀眾帶入了高度緊張的超現(xiàn)實氛圍中。

《南方車站的聚會》去年在中國上映后大受歡迎,并先后進入各大國際電影節(jié)展映環(huán)節(jié)。而在去年秋天舉辦的紐約國際電影節(jié)上,刁亦男在翻譯的陪同下接受了《財富》雜志的專訪。《南方車站的聚會》現(xiàn)已在紐約電影論壇上映,預計將于3月份陸續(xù)登陸全美院線,并將在此后不久上線視頻點播影院。

為簡明起見,以下訪談經(jīng)過編輯。

《南方車站的聚會》參加了各大國際電影節(jié),您發(fā)現(xiàn)美國觀眾和歐洲觀眾對這部中國電影的反應有什么不同?

紐約的觀眾和戛納的觀眾很不一樣。在戛納電影節(jié)上,人們會很嚴肅地看待各種問題,比如怎樣提出批評、怎樣看待敘事和結(jié)構(gòu)。而在紐約,人們通常更加放松。他們都是影迷,他們熱愛電影,會沉浸其中,然后積極地做出回應。我數(shù)了一下,紐約觀眾在觀影過程中放聲大笑的次數(shù)大約有15次。有兩到三個鏡頭,他們可能被露骨的畫面嚇到了。還有兩到三個場景,觀眾明顯被影片氛圍和故事情節(jié)吸引住了。

《南方車站的聚會》中,胡歌(左)和飾演劉愛愛的桂綸鎂(右)。導演刁亦男談到本片時表示:“與其說這部電影想要表達敘事意義,不如說它更注重動作和行為?!?/font>

我最初的想法是:“怎么才能用純粹的電影語言,通過畫面和臺詞來捕捉角色和故事的內(nèi)涵?”我想使用更多的動作鏡頭,而不是對白和語言,因為我認為人類——特別是這些人物——是他們每個行為的總和。我想生動地捕捉這些行為,從而捕捉到這些人物所代表的品質(zhì)。這樣我就能展露出他們的幽默和人性。

從敘事的角度來說,我特別希望偏離傳統(tǒng)的好萊塢結(jié)構(gòu)。這種結(jié)構(gòu)往往非常精致,但它的框架也是線性的。導演要確保觀眾“看懂了”,要讓他們在第一時間毫無障礙地解碼電影。為了捕捉當代感,我需要把它分解、打破敘事結(jié)構(gòu),為觀眾制造障礙和挑戰(zhàn)。我要迫使他們參與解讀,解碼他們所看到的畫面,而不是被動地接受教條的灌輸和宣講……我想制造挑戰(zhàn),這樣觀眾才會被迫參與進來。

黑色電影往往會通過黑幫、警察、蛇蝎美女等人物形象來探索這些原型。您在重塑這個電影子類的時候,是怎樣敲定主角類型的?

本片的主題可以歸結(jié)到周澤農(nóng)這個人物身上,他和所有人一樣,也希望預見自己的死亡。他想到了死,想到自己會怎樣死去。于是他想知道:“怎么才能完全按照我的計劃去死呢?”這就創(chuàng)造一種美感,他(注定的)死亡成了展現(xiàn)他逃離過去的生活、逃離前妻和家人的一種方式。接著因為一場偶然的沖突和警察的被殺,引發(fā)了后來的一系列事件。他發(fā)現(xiàn)他可以設(shè)計或安排自己的死亡,或許他能讓自己得到救贖,讓生命變得更有意義。

影片中的這場交戰(zhàn)很有意思,周澤農(nóng)一方面要躲避警察,一方面也在努力逃避心中的內(nèi)疚感和責任感?!赌戏杰囌镜木蹠酚袝r非常抽象,似乎更容易在感情上產(chǎn)生強烈的沖擊,而不是堅持直白的敘述。在敘事過程中,您是怎樣運用美學符號來表達自己的意圖的?

我希望重點表現(xiàn)人物的行為和動作,因為正是這些行動體現(xiàn)了他們的內(nèi)心情感和心理狀態(tài)。比方看日本的歌舞伎表演,你會發(fā)現(xiàn)敘事或情節(jié)并不重要。故事情節(jié)大家都非常熟悉,但當我們一遍又一遍觀看表演時,我們看的是臺上男女演員的肢體語言,不論是語音語調(diào)還是移動手指和身體的方式,我們看的是他們怎樣用非常抽象的語言來講述整個故事。這是最純粹的表達和抽象形式,可以在某種意義上展露一個人的內(nèi)在靈魂。與其說這部電影想要表達敘事意義,不如說它更注重動作和行為。

胡歌(左后)在電影《南方車站的聚會》中。導演刁亦男說,影片的氛圍和人物也“與這些灰色異托邦里的人有一樣的想法”。

《南方車站聚會》中有許多鏡頭展現(xiàn)了被雨水沖刷的街道和黑暗的小巷。這部電影在武漢拍攝,它屬于黑色片,同時也重構(gòu)了這種城市空間。能談?wù)勀窃趺磩?chuàng)作影片布景的嗎?

這種理想的抽象形式和氛圍,從另一方面來說也與選擇的空間密切相關(guān)。通過認真思考城市規(guī)劃的問題,你會對都市社會有一個認識。你會對當代城市生活產(chǎn)生近乎烏托邦式的印象。但是在它背后,或者說在這個烏托邦的邊緣,你也能看到許多異托邦的空間和環(huán)境。當你通過高速公路從郊區(qū)進入開發(fā)區(qū)和公園,看到城市里的酒吧和高檔酒店,這種現(xiàn)象在當代中國社會非常普遍。這些空間可能會顯得非常神秘,它也是許多爭議所在:它介于法律的灰色地帶,是非對錯并不是涇渭分明的。我在這部電影中創(chuàng)造的氛圍和人物,與這些灰色異托邦里的人有一樣的想法,他們也希望通過自己的行為和姿態(tài)來實現(xiàn)自我。(財富中文網(wǎng))

譯者:智竑

刁亦男執(zhí)導的《南方車站的聚會》通過強烈的視覺沖擊和獨特的氣質(zhì),將黑色電影代入了雨水漫天的街道和中國“二線城市”的面貌。

影片以繁榮的湖北省會武漢及周邊地區(qū)為背景(由于新冠肺炎疫情爆發(fā),目前湖北全省尚處在隔離狀態(tài)),講述了中國超大型城市以外的社會現(xiàn)實。2014年,刁亦男憑借《白日焰火》獲得了當年的柏林電影節(jié)最佳影片。

在這部新作中,小混混周澤農(nóng)(胡歌飾)因為被卷入摩托車盜竊團伙爭奪地盤的械斗,無意中殺死了一名警察,不得不走上逃亡之路。在逃避警察和更為殘忍的黑社會勢力途中,他邂逅了一名性工作者劉愛愛(桂綸鎂飾),而后者也有著神秘的動機。兩人共同設(shè)計了一個繁復的計劃,即使在重案組劉隊長(廖凡飾)與警方的全方位圍追堵截之下,周澤農(nóng)仍然可以悄悄獲得舉報自己的那筆賞金。故事生猛而復雜,每個場景都環(huán)環(huán)相扣,例如警方突襲一座建筑的情節(jié);霓虹燈照亮的小路上上演的摩托車追逐戲;夜間廣場舞背景下一雙運動鞋閃閃發(fā)光,直到變得血跡斑斑……這一切都將觀眾帶入了高度緊張的超現(xiàn)實氛圍中。

《南方車站的聚會》去年在中國上映后大受歡迎,并先后進入各大國際電影節(jié)展映環(huán)節(jié)。而在去年秋天舉辦的紐約國際電影節(jié)上,刁亦男在翻譯的陪同下接受了《財富》雜志的專訪。《南方車站的聚會》現(xiàn)已在紐約電影論壇上映,預計將于3月份陸續(xù)登陸全美院線,并將在此后不久上線視頻點播影院。

為簡明起見,以下訪談經(jīng)過編輯。

《南方車站的聚會》參加了各大國際電影節(jié),您發(fā)現(xiàn)美國觀眾和歐洲觀眾對這部中國電影的反應有什么不同?

紐約的觀眾和戛納的觀眾很不一樣。在戛納電影節(jié)上,人們會很嚴肅地看待各種問題,比如怎樣提出批評、怎樣看待敘事和結(jié)構(gòu)。而在紐約,人們通常更加放松。他們都是影迷,他們熱愛電影,會沉浸其中,然后積極地做出回應。我數(shù)了一下,紐約觀眾在觀影過程中放聲大笑的次數(shù)大約有15次。有兩到三個鏡頭,他們可能被露骨的畫面嚇到了。還有兩到三個場景,觀眾明顯被影片氛圍和故事情節(jié)吸引住了。

我最初的想法是:“怎么才能用純粹的電影語言,通過畫面和臺詞來捕捉角色和故事的內(nèi)涵?”我想使用更多的動作鏡頭,而不是對白和語言,因為我認為人類——特別是這些人物——是他們每個行為的總和。我想生動地捕捉這些行為,從而捕捉到這些人物所代表的品質(zhì)。這樣我就能展露出他們的幽默和人性。

從敘事的角度來說,我特別希望偏離傳統(tǒng)的好萊塢結(jié)構(gòu)。這種結(jié)構(gòu)往往非常精致,但它的框架也是線性的。導演要確保觀眾“看懂了”,要讓他們在第一時間毫無障礙地解碼電影。為了捕捉當代感,我需要把它分解、打破敘事結(jié)構(gòu),為觀眾制造障礙和挑戰(zhàn)。我要迫使他們參與解讀,解碼他們所看到的畫面,而不是被動地接受教條的灌輸和宣講……我想制造挑戰(zhàn),這樣觀眾才會被迫參與進來。

黑色電影往往會通過黑幫、警察、蛇蝎美女等人物形象來探索這些原型。您在重塑這個電影子類的時候,是怎樣敲定主角類型的?

本片的主題可以歸結(jié)到周澤農(nóng)這個人物身上,他和所有人一樣,也希望預見自己的死亡。他想到了死,想到自己會怎樣死去。于是他想知道:“怎么才能完全按照我的計劃去死呢?”這就創(chuàng)造一種美感,他(注定的)死亡成了展現(xiàn)他逃離過去的生活、逃離前妻和家人的一種方式。接著因為一場偶然的沖突和警察的被殺,引發(fā)了后來的一系列事件。他發(fā)現(xiàn)他可以設(shè)計或安排自己的死亡,或許他能讓自己得到救贖,讓生命變得更有意義。

影片中的這場交戰(zhàn)很有意思,周澤農(nóng)一方面要躲避警察,一方面也在努力逃避心中的內(nèi)疚感和責任感?!赌戏杰囌镜木蹠酚袝r非常抽象,似乎更容易在感情上產(chǎn)生強烈的沖擊,而不是堅持直白的敘述。在敘事過程中,您是怎樣運用美學符號來表達自己的意圖的?

我希望重點表現(xiàn)人物的行為和動作,因為正是這些行動體現(xiàn)了他們的內(nèi)心情感和心理狀態(tài)。比方看日本的歌舞伎表演,你會發(fā)現(xiàn)敘事或情節(jié)并不重要。故事情節(jié)大家都非常熟悉,但當我們一遍又一遍觀看表演時,我們看的是臺上男女演員的肢體語言,不論是語音語調(diào)還是移動手指和身體的方式,我們看的是他們怎樣用非常抽象的語言來講述整個故事。這是最純粹的表達和抽象形式,可以在某種意義上展露一個人的內(nèi)在靈魂。與其說這部電影想要表達敘事意義,不如說它更注重動作和行為。

《南方車站聚會》中有許多鏡頭展現(xiàn)了被雨水沖刷的街道和黑暗的小巷。這部電影在武漢拍攝,它屬于黑色片,同時也重構(gòu)了這種城市空間。能談?wù)勀窃趺磩?chuàng)作影片布景的嗎?

這種理想的抽象形式和氛圍,從另一方面來說也與選擇的空間密切相關(guān)。通過認真思考城市規(guī)劃的問題,你會對都市社會有一個認識。你會對當代城市生活產(chǎn)生近乎烏托邦式的印象。但是在它背后,或者說在這個烏托邦的邊緣,你也能看到許多異托邦的空間和環(huán)境。當你通過高速公路從郊區(qū)進入開發(fā)區(qū)和公園,看到城市里的酒吧和高檔酒店,這種現(xiàn)象在當代中國社會非常普遍。這些空間可能會顯得非常神秘,它也是許多爭議所在:它介于法律的灰色地帶,是非對錯并不是涇渭分明的。我在這部電影中創(chuàng)造的氛圍和人物,與這些灰色異托邦里的人有一樣的想法,他們也希望通過自己的行為和姿態(tài)來實現(xiàn)自我。(財富中文網(wǎng))

譯者:智竑

Visually breathtaking and staged with singularly arresting style, Diao Yinan's The Wild Goose Lake relocates film noir within the rain-slicked streets and hardscrabble realities of China's "second-tier" cities.

Set in and around Wuhan, the capital of the country's bustling Hubei province (currently quarantined amid the coronavirus outbreak), the film focuses on the corruption and inequity of life just beyond China's towering megacities. Diao, best known for directing 2014's Black Coal, Thin Ice (which won its year's Berlinale), is marvelously skilled at telling distinctly Chinese stories—of economic poverty and quiet lawlessness, heavy-handed police and amoral civilians just scraping by—in the language of noir.

His latest follows a small-time gangster, Zhou Zenong (Hu Ge), who's forced into hiding after inadvertently killing a police officer in the process of navigating a turf war between rival gangs of motorcycle thieves. Struggling to fend off both law enforcement and a more ruthless array of mobsters out for blood, he eventually intersects with Liu Aiai (Gwei Lun-mei), a sex worker with mysterious motivations of her own. Together, they hatch a convoluted scheme through which he can discreetly collect the bounty on his own head, even as enemies led by police captain Liu (Liao Fan) close in from every direction. It's a vibrant, labyrinthine story in which every perfectly composed sequence—police storming a complex with brutal intent, a nocturnal motorcycle chase down neon-lit backroads, a public dance in which light-up sneakers gleam through the night until they're flecked with blood—draws the audience deeper into its surreal, heightened atmosphere.

A massive hit upon its release in China, The Wild Goose Lake made its way along the international festival circuit this past year—including a stop at the New York Film Festival last fall, where Diao and a translator sat for an interview with Fortune. Currently screening at New York's Film Forum, The Wild Goose Lake is rolling out in U.S. theaters across March and will hit VOD shortly thereafter.

The following conversation has been edited and condensed for clarity.

In bringing The Wild Goose Lake along the festival circuit, what differences have you observed between American and European audiences in terms of their reactions to this Chinese noir?

The New York audience is very different from the Cannes audience. At Cannes, they tend to take it all very seriously in terms of how to offer critiques, how to see the problems of the narrative and structure. In New York, they tend to be more relaxed. They're cinephiles, and they love films. They immerse themselves into them and react in a lively manner. I've tallied, and there are maybe 15 moments in the movie where the New York audience laughs out loud, two or three where people are really shocked and taken aback by the graphic details of the imagery, and two or three instances where they're visibly engrossed by not only the mood but the plotlines in the story.

To me, the original idea was, "How can I capture characters and story using pure filmmaking languages, in terms of imagery and vocabulary?" I wanted to resort to actions moreso than dialogue and words, because I do think we as human beings—and especially these characters—are the sum of our actions. I wanted to capture those actions in a vivid way and in doing so capture the quality of what these characters embody. From there, I could tease out their humor and humanity.

Narratively, I really wanted to stray from conventional Hollywood structures, which tend to be very polished and also linear in terms of framework. They want to make sure the audience "gets it," immediately, without any difficulty in decoding the film. In order to capture a contemporary feel [to the noir genre,] I needed to fragment it, to fracture the narrative structure in a way that I was creating certain barriers, hurdles, and challenges for audiences. I force them to be part of that process of interpreting, decoding what they're looking at, rather than just passively looking at this dogma being preached onto the audience... I wanted to create challenges so the audience will be forced to participate.

Film noir tends to explore these archetypes in terms of character—the gangster, the cop, the femme fatale. How did you select the kind of lead character you wanted to have a role in your reinvention of the subgenre?

The themes of this particular film can be boiled down to the character of Zhou Zenong and how he, just like everyone else, wishes to foresee his own death. He thinks about death, how he's going to die. In this case, he questions, "How am I going to die in a way I have full control of?" This creates some sense of aesthetic, his [inevitable] dying becoming a way to show how he'd been escaping from his previous life, his ex-wife, his family, and then—because of this chance encounter and also the killing of the cop—this chain of events that's initiated. He realizes that he can design or plan his death in a way that might somehow redeem him and give meaning to his life.

It's fascinating how that battle plays out in the film, as Zenong runs from the cops but also struggles to escape his own senses of guilt and responsibility. The Wild Goose Lake becomes beautifully abstract in places, seeming more to wash over you than it does to adhere to a straightforward narrative. How did you craft aesthetics that would match and mirror your intentions as a storyteller?

We wanted to narrow in on the actions and gestures of the characters, because I believe those actions really embody what's going on within them emotionally and psychologically. If you look at the Kabuki theatre in Japan, it's not so much about the narrative or plot lines. We know those stories well, by heart, but when we see those shows again and again, it's to see how each actor and actress onstage uses their body to tell the story in such an abstract way, whether it's the pitch of their voice or the way they move their fingers and their bodies. It's the purest form of expression and abstraction, to somehow tease out what's going on in one's inner soul. This film is not so much about narrative meanings and much more about actions and movements.

The Wild Goose Lake, within Wuhan, reimagines that space as so belonging to the noir subgenre, with all its rain-slicked streets and dark alleyways. Can you tell me about crafting that setting?

The other aspect of this ideal abstraction, the atmosphere, is very much about the space that has been selected. In this formal way of thinking about city planning, you have an ideal of what an urban society means. There's this almost utopia image of what it means to live in urban contemporary cities. Beneath that, or on the peripheral areas of this utopia space, you also have these dystopian spaces or locations. That's very prevalent in contemporary Chinese society, when you're somewhere around these suburban areas, entering development zones and parks by the highways, bars and sleazy hotels in suburban towns. Those are spaces that can become very mysterious, and they're also the space and location of much controversy—the gray area between what's legal and illegal, what's right and wrong. The atmosphere and characters I wanted to create in this particular film share this idea of what people do in these gray, dystopian areas, how they actualize themselves through the actions and gestures they make.

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